So join the club. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. *you are Gods only light at the place of work. a human-designated term. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. Each church is completely autonomous, and thus, as it was written, appoint elders in every church, Truly, we need to follow the design God laid out for the church, for in so doing, we will benefit. That is one video that I wold love to post. Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. Take the worst despots history records all Satan has to do is convince them of their right and ability to save the world and rid it of its pestilences (unfortunately these are usually men). Hours . Morris no longer sits on Driscolls board. More and more people are realizing that they are not going to get the facts from Harvest. maybe a z darn, its just the right word. When my friends are all gone. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. First question: when was this letter written and sent? These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Thats not the same as authoritarian of course but there are lots of verses warning against such behaviour and other selfish motives. elastigirl: but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. After reading each post on this matter, I cannot find a single one that brings dishonor to the Lord Jesus. But they do eventually turn. Friend: it must be protected. I had a churchgoer tell me once in a Bible Study to Lighten up Max. I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. Whose job is the ministry? Apparently MacDonald had a major meltdown on the stage, yelling so loudly that his spit could be felt by those sitting in the front row of the auditorium. Yikes! Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. Law Prof: He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. For you, maybe, but not for most here. I rather doubt that they were able to get it right in the end. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. Look what that got them. I am willing to bet that MacDonald has been on the horn with Driscoll to see how he transitioned to Scottsdale after Mars Hill imploded. A lot of people still hurt. In April 2016, Harvest acquired a permanent church facility in Aurora to allow the Aurora Campus to continue to grow, both in number and effectiveness in reaching people for Christ. And all youre ever going to be is mean There was no glory or wealth in being a shepherd, once one of the more despised positions due to its lowliness. Any truth about MacDonald as a bad-boy preacher needs to be made public! Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. Example: I use my actual name on Twitter. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. The apostles counted that an honor. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. In addition to the institutional realities in the Gentile churches that we can read about in the early post-biblical literature, we have Pauls guidelines and, IMO above all his vision of one-another relationship within the churches. The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. How to Resign from a Church America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. That is such a terrible alternative that its not hard to imagine that people could be willing to engage in all kinds of objectively evil things sin in order to avert that outcome. The Apostles warned us this would happen and to be on guard, but we havent done much about it. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. Why, dontcha know God inspired Paul to speak his thoughts, and me your trusted pastor to interpret them rightly? They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. Thanks so much for passing on much needed information. They dont want you to have real relationships; the systems designed to prevent them. After all, Paige Patterson (big game hunter and ex-President, Southwestern Seminary) went on African safaris and used that experience to spread the gospel: https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/. Today Harvest Bible Chapel is a family of Christ-adoring worshipers on multiple campuses throughout Chicagoland. they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. We can all agree that negative public discourse about a specific person or church is rarely good., thousands have been saved, and no one wants to see a vibrant church be harmed.. Oh Dallas, for heavens sake, cut it out. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. So at least in theory there are checks and balances. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). Yes, because he delivered the pew what they wanted in a church experience. This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? Just let go of the reins, lil woman, and submit to your God-given, masculine authorities . a Christian/inspirational filmmaker, and former Director of Visual Media and member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel . Pastor James MacDonald, the founder Harvest Bible Chapel, a megachurch located in the surrounding Chicago area, has been fired as a leader of the church. POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. Which really Goes against believing in an all powerful creator God almighty. You have any lies and untrue rumors to highlight that are being spread here, out with them. Dallas Jenkins, Dee also claims to have the inside track on the facts regarding Braxtons suicide but refuses to explain, only stating that the explanation would cause more pain. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. sober-minded Shes gone after him more than most. (Protestia) Dallas Jenkins, son of "Left Behind" author Jerry Jenkins, and Director of the smash-hit TV show The Chosen continued to double down on controversial comments he made last year about Mormons (Latter Day Saints, ie LDS) and Jesus loving the same Jesus, appearing on Ruslan KD's channel and again insisting that some of his Mormon friends I dont get the impression that Dee is OK with Hall at all. What are sheep to do? Nobody wants this. If such practices exist, someone needs to out them once and for all, rather than making elusive statements about the culture of fear. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. Thats a remarkably long time for the wheels to fall off. Were certainly no better in terms of our basic humanity, but we may have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. Muff Potter: The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. While some noble souls may have stayed longer thinking they could make a difference and persuade JMac to be a better man, the wise ones would have realized this to be an impossible task and took the first opportunity to get while the gettin was good. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. We have seen through the falsity of that which proclaims itself the infallible voice of God. part of it a fear of the outside that is purposely cultivated in church environments. I understand your point and the historical information. DallasHow selfishIs it all about you?Or, is your statement for the greater good of countless others? Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. just Sure, an innocent, upright person could be naively drawn into something they thought was worthy. And that fourth bullet point: The elders would tell people to leave quietly in order to *protect their family. I suspect that all of this is true, and more. Regarding the $2m house in Inverness: Let us never forget how TED exposed the story of how MacDonald agreed to move to a smaller house in Elgin, and published the location/pictures to prove what a sacrifice he was making and secretly (via a trust, so his name wasnt on it) secured another mansion instead. The vast majority of those martyred died for the sake of rejecting false authority and false teaching. ++++++++++++++++++++. No more law-keeping. Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. Do you mean it was given to those elders who assisted in helping JMac continue on with his antics? It's literally in his DNA, as his father Jerry is the co-author of the popular LeftBehind series of religious novels. I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. The beat goes on until Jesus returns. If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? Harvest Bible Chapel has owned its mistakes and endured to become a happier and healthier church, whose members recently pledged financially, in their walk/work for Christ, and in their. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Its hard to go back when you see what goes on behind the curtain. But, I aint Paul, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see how this sorts itself out in eternity. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. TS00: That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! He says he knows, "from the inside, some of these things that have come out in the public about pastors". In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. Yep, thats the house on a private lake, Thompson said. I guess the other 25% are hoping to get some plum positions. Then, he apologized and said the would teach the high school Bible class. Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! Their churches were of human origin, they failed. We have partnered with Grace Theological Seminary and Chicago Partnership to move onward in equipping leaders to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. Or an attempt to conceal more? There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Having the equipment available to produce, record, and stream the services completely online, Harvest was able to continue to preach Gods Word unapologetically and worship unashamedly. And of course you. The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. And if the insight and oversight in wisdom and understanding must come from books or online, so be it. I prayed for your father-in-law and your family just now. Someone needs to write an article about the fake church watchdog industrial complex, including but not necessarily limitied to ECFA, MinistrySafe, Best Christian Workplace Institute. God bless you. Theres a difference between people who hunt professionally for a living, indigenous hunters who hunt as part of their tribal culture, and rich guys like James McDonald who do it to knock another item off their bucket list. I know some people will disagree with me, but thats just my opinion. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. In destructive cults that pose as Christian megas, there is evidently an attitude of privilege and authority among those who call themselves elders that is simply nonexistent in the Bibleit seems anti-Christ, actually. It has been a comfort reading here (and at TED, Julie Roys, and other sites revealing the truth) of others who are working through this. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. They tolerate whatever they must (loud music, annoying demands for money, sermons that go in one ear and out the other) in order to establish a community of friends and support in a cold world in which family is often spread across the continent. Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? No. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. ex HCA Staff: . Christ gave Himself for His people and that kind of sacrificial self-giving love was meant to be characteristic of those who stood in Christs place in offices of authority in the churches. Im sure it depends on the setting and the ministry of the church. Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. That being said, I would think there is great value in making this public: as a warning for potential future victims of James MacDonald. Where is Matt Chandler Pastor? I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. The time for half measures is over. American believers have been forced to accept far less than God intended for us; were just too comfortable with easy-church and easy-believism that costs us nothing. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. 3/2/2023 - 9:30am-11:30am. More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. Kind of clueless about it, obviously, because you act like think youre making a trenchant point. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. i mean, do we actually believe what we say we believe? Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. Driscoll was stopped Hybels was stopped MacDonald was stopped. I didnt want these points to go unmade. When I now go to a church, I want to speak with elders and listen to what they are saying and how they are behaving and whether they are willing to reveal how much the pastor is making. Harvest launched a radio show; founded a Christian school with over 700 students; built its own retreat center; produced feature-length films; wrote its own worship songs; and created its own. The harm is already done. On a side note, Im wondering if the wealth of knowledge that you and others like Jessica Hockett possesswondering if perhaps the two of you, along with a few other key people, have considered meeting and strategizing what could be some next steps going forward to help ensure that Gods people will never again be fleeced by the likes of James MacDonald, Luke MacDonald, Rick Donald, Jeff Donaldson, and, if it comes down to it, Donald Duck. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. Fred not only took out debt to fund new purchases, he took out additional debt on already encumbered buildings. TS00: Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? (Many self-claimed Reformed do not really know or embrace the God their theology demands, so its not an issue.) I second that. But you could change the future by using your failure for good. Humility is required. They all were making out pretty large with the tithes of people who thought they were giving to good causes. ME GREAT WHITE HUNTER! .. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? (just like Adam hearkening to his wife in the garden huh?) 5G, Closer Campaign. WHERE TO . 2 -. As Law Prof noted, JMac is not your usual run-of-the-mill preacher he had an international stage he had thousands of followers he failed you, HBC, and the church at large he has disqualified himself from ministry. I can only guess, but I imagine that JMac and Hybels laid very clever traps, grooming and gradually leading people ever further into compromise and, eventually, outright sin. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. Because MacDonald earned it. trust God and not your own self. My Comment was Deleted Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. Thats why the early church had congregational governance, rather than elder rule polity the Body of Christ had a say in who the church leaders were. that exploited the public of Harvest Bible Chapel (the profits of which you enjoyed and benefited from). IMO, most people attend church to replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed. Pre-1970 power (denominational competition for theological control of the Body of Christ), Post-1970 money (mega-madness begins, 6-figure salaries, limelight, mansions, jets). As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. Thats a smoking crater of a response. GOD SAITH!!!!!. Many do not seek truth, but whatever best tickles their ears. Im told love covers over a multitude of sins. According to Titus 1:5-9 Nelson, Dallas Jenkins, Garrett Higbee, Trei Tatum, and Rick Donald. He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? Ive got to process that letter. Sure its likely that not everyone knew everything, but no one is telling all they know, and you can only suppose it has much to do with the filthy lucre they received from the till. elastigirl: perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. TS00: I find it very comforting to know that Jesus entered into a world that was very similar to what we now face: Religion had become a caricature of what God desired, and Jesus gently called people to follow him, rather than fear men. Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Fans of hit TV series The Chosen know creator Dallas Jenkins' "five loaves and two fish story". With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. I tracked down the World Magazine article on Jerry Jenkins gambling from which I had gleaned what little info I had and saw that it mentioned that Dallas also participated in online poker, and that another son was a dealer at a real live casino. Identity, faith, sexuality, and gender--come learn what God's Word says about these topics in light of our current culture. He is not egotistical, and not, as is so falsely asserted, all about getting glory he is all about stepping through the barriers of time and space to reveal his gentle, sacrificial love for us. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Dallas Jenkins: its unfortunate that people are making them public, Good Lord! Your desire for those far flung hundreds of thousands or millions whod been influenced by his ministry to know the cold, hard truth shouldve trumped any desire to keep things in house. really, what im saying is i think we can hold Paul and his comments loosely, just as we hold what others say loosely. but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. Someone asked How high does this go? I was a strong donor who loved the church and served in multiple areasI was in a good place spirituallybut I didnt meet the qualifications. Too much I and not enough we in there. Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. Shouldnt we trust our churchs leadership?, But as of this moment, the vast majority of James s closest friends and ministry leaders over the decades have said nothing publicly about these crises.. In case this has escaped your awareness, most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in churches. The false institutional church was reconstituted by Constantine, who asserted the right to define and regulate what was orthodox and permissible. It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. Oh, I probably am too self-righteous or self-centered or something. Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. Jimmy Evans, Head of Marriage Today TV & Sr Pastor and Apostle of Gateway Church, is reportedly in contact with James MacDonald. I am beginning to feel like at best it is simply not what Jesus intended for us, as it allows to much anonymity, where the church should be a community And at worst it is laced with risks for massive abuse and corruption. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. you are a very comforting presence here, Max. You could be the pope for all I know. It is not elaborate but adequate for what we seek to do for Gods Kingdom. The statements were given to Greg Bradshaw, who shared with only a few Elders. JMac should never pastor another church ever and Dallas needs to take a look at himself and why he was chosen for that elder board. ex HCA Staff: Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents in the first year of the schools history during Holy Week. I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. Is it possible that they are driven by the fear that a large mega church willing to pay them a half million or more a year for their silent corroboration of financial abuse may not be willing to hire them if they speak out? Fisher, thank you for those words of life and hope. Bad decisions lead to pain. https://theelephantsdebt.com/2017/06/19/headed-to-the-big-house-for-the-sake-of-jesus/. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. There were kindergarten through 5th graders AND many of us parents / employees, who did not know it was going to be shown. "I'm going to make mistakes. Great comment! Yowzers, you have me stumped. Jenkins is a former member of the Executive Leadership Team at Harvest Bible Chapel, the Rolling Meadows-based church that fired James MacDonald its founder and senior pastor for comments . ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. They deserve each other. 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Type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the Executive leadership Team at Bible. Describe, and more no better in terms of our basic humanity, but thats my.
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